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Becoming a Purpose Driven Church (An Interview with Rick Warren, Part 1)
Editor's Note: The following is a re-published version of an inspiring interview with Pastor Rick Warren from 2002, and the principles are still extremely relevant to where the church is today. Pass this one along...
Jon Walker: You’re known for saying that pastors need to be more "lost" centered, that is, looking at their church from the perspective of someone who doesn’t go to church. Could you elaborate on that? Rick Warren: The most overlooked principle for church growth is we have to love people the way Jesus did. That’s it! The motive behind everything we’ve done at Saddleback is that we love and care about lost people. The reason Jesus attracted such large crowds is because he loved people. On the other hand, I’ve heard churches justify their lack of growth by saying, "We’re small because we haven’t watered down the Gospel.” But maybe the real reason they don’t have a crowd is because they don't want a crowd! They love their own comfort more than they love lost people. To reach unbelievers you have to move outside your own comfort zone and do things that often feel awkward and uncomfortable to you. It takes unselfish people to grow a church. Lost people have a lot of problems and their lives are messy. It’s not by accident that Jesus compared evangelism to fishing. Fishing is often messy and smelly. So many churches want the fish they catch to be prescaled, gutted, cleaned and cooked. That’s why they never reach anyone. If your church is serious about reaching the unchurched, you must be willing to put up with people who have a lot of problems. The secret of reaching unbelievers is learning to think like an unbeliever. But the problem is – the longer you’re a Christian, the less you think like an unbeliever. And if you’re a seminary-trained pastor, you’re even more removed from unbelievers. You think like a pastor, not a pagan. So you have to intentionally learn to think like an unbeliever again. Paul says, "I become all things to all men so I may, in some way, win some.” What he meant was he let his target determine his approach. When with Jews, he communicated like a Jew. When he was with Gentiles, he communicated like a Gentile. I’m sure if Paul came to Southern California, he’d learn to communicate in Southern Californian terms. Some people think that communicating differently in different cultures is just being a chameleon, but actually it means you're being strategic. You don’t compromise the message. That message is, the faith once delivered for the saints, and we don’t have an option to change the message. But the methods of sharing it have to change with every new generation and location. The programs and tools we used when I was a youth pastor in inner city LA were different from those used as a short-term missionary in Japan, and those methods were different from what we’re doing now at Saddleback. There is no one way to grow a church! It takes all kinds of churches to reach all kinds of people. If you’re getting the job done – lives are being changed – then I like the way you’re doing it, whether or not it’s my style of ministry. Walker: In other words, you’re not interested in Saddleback clones. Warren: Absolutely not! Not one of the dozens of mission churches we’ve planted is doing it exactly like us. We believe every church must have its own unique thumbprint. That’s what The Purpose Driven Church is all about. If a principle is biblical, I believe it is transcultural. In other words, it will work anywhere. But you must filter those principles through the culture of the community, the makeup of the congregation, and the personality of the pastor. Purpose Driven churches are all committed to the same five New Testament purposes of the church, but these congregations come in all sizes, shapes, and cultures. God’s purposes for the church never change, but the programs and methods do. Look around and it’s obvious that God loves variety. He loves to do things in more than one way! Walker: What about prayer and dedication? Is the growth of a church based upon the pastor’s commitment? Warren: It’s a myth that all you need is prayer and dedication to grow a healthy church. Some of the most dedicated prayer warriors I know are pastors of dying churches. It really bothers me that some pastors' conferences promote that myth - leaving pastors feeling discouraged and guilty instead of encouraged. We’ve all heard speakers claim, "If you’ll just pray more, preach the Word, and be dedicated, then your church will grow.” Well, that’s just not true. I can show you thousands of churches where pastors are doctrinally sound; they love the Lord; they’re committed and Spirit-filled and yet their churches are dying on the vine. For instance, in my own denomination about 70 percent of the churches are either plateaued or declining. Is that because 70 percent of our pastors are not dedicated? Of course not. It’s a complete myth. If dedication is all that is needed to grow a church, 99 percent of our churches should be growing today, because most pastors are genuinely dedicated. But growing a healthy church is not that easy or simple. It involves many different factors and requires certain leadership skills. Any time you hear a person say, "This is the one way to growth,” you can be sure they’re wrong because there are many keys to growth. That’s why I'm convinced that the key issue for our congregations in the 21st century is church health - not church growth. Focusing on church growth is the wrong focus. If we’ll focus on developing healthy churches, they will grow automatically. All living things grow – if they are healthy! I don’t have to tell my kids to grow. They do it automatically. Now, what makes a healthy church? The answer is "balance,” just like in the human body. Your body has a number of different systems: a circulatory system, a skeletal system, respiratory system, central nervous system, digestive system and others. When these systems are in balance we call that “health.” When they are out of balance, we call it, “dis-ease,” disease. Likewise the Body of Christ, the church, is made up of different systems, each fulfilling a different purpose: for worship, fellowship, evangelism, discipleship, and ministry. When you have a healthy system or process for each of these purposes, and these systems are balanced, the church naturally grows! But here’s the catch: unless you set up an intentional strategy and structure to ensure balance between the five purposes of the church, then your church will tend to overemphasize the purpose the pastor feels most passionate about. If he has a heart for evangelism, the church may reach lots of people, but nobody grows up in the faith. If he has a gift of teaching, the church will develop mature believers, but will tend to neglect winning the lost. If he has pastoral gifts, the church will have great fellowship and care, but the church’s ministry to the community will suffer or there will be little evangelism. You must set up a Purpose Driven structure that allows the church to become more than just an extension of its pastor. Every church is driven by something: tradition, programs, finances, events, seekers, and even buildings. But to be healthy, it must become Purpose Driven. They need a strategy that will help them grow warmer through fellowship, deeper through discipleship, stronger through worship, broader through ministry and larger through evangelism. Sadly, many churches are personality driven. This puts the congregation in a very precarious position if the leader dies, moves, or has a moral failure. At Saddleback we’ve built the church on purpose, not personality. If I were to die right now, we’d lose maybe 10 percent of the “fringe” people who come to hear me, but that would still leave 90 percent of the other people to attend each week. No church is perfect but you can be healthy without being perfect. Walker: Saddleback has no committees. I’m wondering – can you be a church and not have committees? (Laughter) Warren: That’s funny. It’s true that we have no committees, but we do have lots of different lay ministries. What’s the difference? Committees discuss but ministries do. Committees argue while ministries act. Committees maintain while ministries minister. Committees talk and consider while ministries serve and care. Committees make decisions that they expect other people to implement. At Saddleback, the implementers are the decision-makers. The people who do the ministry get to make their own decisions about that ministry. We do not separate authority from responsibility. We trust people with both. Here’s a radical question: What do these words and phrases have in common: majority rule, parliamentary procedures, ballots, boards, board meetings, business meetings, elections, voting, and committees. None of them are found in the Bible. Yet how many churches do you know that are formed on committees, boards, voting, and majority rule? What we have done is taken an American form of government and pressed it upon the church. The result is often the church is as ineffective and bureaucratic as the government is. We must remember that the church is a body not a business. It is an organism not an organization, and so God intends for it to operate on the basis of spiritual gifts, not elected offices. There is not a single example of voting to elect a pastor or any other church leader person in the New Testament. Voting was so foreign to the New Testament mind that when they chose Judas’ replacement, they cast lots. They were more likely to draw straws than vote.
CLICK HERE FOR PART 2
Jon Walker: You’re known for saying that pastors need to be more "lost" centered, that is, looking at their church from the perspective of someone who doesn’t go to church. Could you elaborate on that? Rick Warren: The most overlooked principle for church growth is we have to love people the way Jesus did. That’s it! The motive behind everything we’ve done at Saddleback is that we love and care about lost people. The reason Jesus attracted such large crowds is because he loved people. On the other hand, I’ve heard churches justify their lack of growth by saying, "We’re small because we haven’t watered down the Gospel.” But maybe the real reason they don’t have a crowd is because they don't want a crowd! They love their own comfort more than they love lost people. To reach unbelievers you have to move outside your own comfort zone and do things that often feel awkward and uncomfortable to you. It takes unselfish people to grow a church. Lost people have a lot of problems and their lives are messy. It’s not by accident that Jesus compared evangelism to fishing. Fishing is often messy and smelly. So many churches want the fish they catch to be prescaled, gutted, cleaned and cooked. That’s why they never reach anyone. If your church is serious about reaching the unchurched, you must be willing to put up with people who have a lot of problems. The secret of reaching unbelievers is learning to think like an unbeliever. But the problem is – the longer you’re a Christian, the less you think like an unbeliever. And if you’re a seminary-trained pastor, you’re even more removed from unbelievers. You think like a pastor, not a pagan. So you have to intentionally learn to think like an unbeliever again. Paul says, "I become all things to all men so I may, in some way, win some.” What he meant was he let his target determine his approach. When with Jews, he communicated like a Jew. When he was with Gentiles, he communicated like a Gentile. I’m sure if Paul came to Southern California, he’d learn to communicate in Southern Californian terms. Some people think that communicating differently in different cultures is just being a chameleon, but actually it means you're being strategic. You don’t compromise the message. That message is, the faith once delivered for the saints, and we don’t have an option to change the message. But the methods of sharing it have to change with every new generation and location. The programs and tools we used when I was a youth pastor in inner city LA were different from those used as a short-term missionary in Japan, and those methods were different from what we’re doing now at Saddleback. There is no one way to grow a church! It takes all kinds of churches to reach all kinds of people. If you’re getting the job done – lives are being changed – then I like the way you’re doing it, whether or not it’s my style of ministry. Walker: In other words, you’re not interested in Saddleback clones. Warren: Absolutely not! Not one of the dozens of mission churches we’ve planted is doing it exactly like us. We believe every church must have its own unique thumbprint. That’s what The Purpose Driven Church is all about. If a principle is biblical, I believe it is transcultural. In other words, it will work anywhere. But you must filter those principles through the culture of the community, the makeup of the congregation, and the personality of the pastor. Purpose Driven churches are all committed to the same five New Testament purposes of the church, but these congregations come in all sizes, shapes, and cultures. God’s purposes for the church never change, but the programs and methods do. Look around and it’s obvious that God loves variety. He loves to do things in more than one way! Walker: What about prayer and dedication? Is the growth of a church based upon the pastor’s commitment? Warren: It’s a myth that all you need is prayer and dedication to grow a healthy church. Some of the most dedicated prayer warriors I know are pastors of dying churches. It really bothers me that some pastors' conferences promote that myth - leaving pastors feeling discouraged and guilty instead of encouraged. We’ve all heard speakers claim, "If you’ll just pray more, preach the Word, and be dedicated, then your church will grow.” Well, that’s just not true. I can show you thousands of churches where pastors are doctrinally sound; they love the Lord; they’re committed and Spirit-filled and yet their churches are dying on the vine. For instance, in my own denomination about 70 percent of the churches are either plateaued or declining. Is that because 70 percent of our pastors are not dedicated? Of course not. It’s a complete myth. If dedication is all that is needed to grow a church, 99 percent of our churches should be growing today, because most pastors are genuinely dedicated. But growing a healthy church is not that easy or simple. It involves many different factors and requires certain leadership skills. Any time you hear a person say, "This is the one way to growth,” you can be sure they’re wrong because there are many keys to growth. That’s why I'm convinced that the key issue for our congregations in the 21st century is church health - not church growth. Focusing on church growth is the wrong focus. If we’ll focus on developing healthy churches, they will grow automatically. All living things grow – if they are healthy! I don’t have to tell my kids to grow. They do it automatically. Now, what makes a healthy church? The answer is "balance,” just like in the human body. Your body has a number of different systems: a circulatory system, a skeletal system, respiratory system, central nervous system, digestive system and others. When these systems are in balance we call that “health.” When they are out of balance, we call it, “dis-ease,” disease. Likewise the Body of Christ, the church, is made up of different systems, each fulfilling a different purpose: for worship, fellowship, evangelism, discipleship, and ministry. When you have a healthy system or process for each of these purposes, and these systems are balanced, the church naturally grows! But here’s the catch: unless you set up an intentional strategy and structure to ensure balance between the five purposes of the church, then your church will tend to overemphasize the purpose the pastor feels most passionate about. If he has a heart for evangelism, the church may reach lots of people, but nobody grows up in the faith. If he has a gift of teaching, the church will develop mature believers, but will tend to neglect winning the lost. If he has pastoral gifts, the church will have great fellowship and care, but the church’s ministry to the community will suffer or there will be little evangelism. You must set up a Purpose Driven structure that allows the church to become more than just an extension of its pastor. Every church is driven by something: tradition, programs, finances, events, seekers, and even buildings. But to be healthy, it must become Purpose Driven. They need a strategy that will help them grow warmer through fellowship, deeper through discipleship, stronger through worship, broader through ministry and larger through evangelism. Sadly, many churches are personality driven. This puts the congregation in a very precarious position if the leader dies, moves, or has a moral failure. At Saddleback we’ve built the church on purpose, not personality. If I were to die right now, we’d lose maybe 10 percent of the “fringe” people who come to hear me, but that would still leave 90 percent of the other people to attend each week. No church is perfect but you can be healthy without being perfect. Walker: Saddleback has no committees. I’m wondering – can you be a church and not have committees? (Laughter) Warren: That’s funny. It’s true that we have no committees, but we do have lots of different lay ministries. What’s the difference? Committees discuss but ministries do. Committees argue while ministries act. Committees maintain while ministries minister. Committees talk and consider while ministries serve and care. Committees make decisions that they expect other people to implement. At Saddleback, the implementers are the decision-makers. The people who do the ministry get to make their own decisions about that ministry. We do not separate authority from responsibility. We trust people with both. Here’s a radical question: What do these words and phrases have in common: majority rule, parliamentary procedures, ballots, boards, board meetings, business meetings, elections, voting, and committees. None of them are found in the Bible. Yet how many churches do you know that are formed on committees, boards, voting, and majority rule? What we have done is taken an American form of government and pressed it upon the church. The result is often the church is as ineffective and bureaucratic as the government is. We must remember that the church is a body not a business. It is an organism not an organization, and so God intends for it to operate on the basis of spiritual gifts, not elected offices. There is not a single example of voting to elect a pastor or any other church leader person in the New Testament. Voting was so foreign to the New Testament mind that when they chose Judas’ replacement, they cast lots. They were more likely to draw straws than vote.
CLICK HERE FOR PART 2
Recent Articles
Three Leadership Qualities You Can Practice
Nehemiah’s story in the Bible is good news for anyone who questions whether they have what it takes to be a leader.Nehemiah wasn’t a priest. He wasn’t a prophet. He wasn’t a builder. He was a cupbearer to a pagan king (Nehemiah 1:11). And God used him to rebuild what an entire nation had given up on.In Nehemiah 1:1–4, he gets a report that Jerusalem is still a mess. The people are in “great trouble and disgrace” (Nehemiah 1:3 NIV). The wall is broken down. The gates are burned.Before Nehemiah ever builds anything, you see the kind of man he is. And that’s always where God starts—with the heart before the work.Here are three qualities God looks for in leaders he uses. The best part? You can choose to practice and grow in these qualities.1) Develop sensitivity to what breaks God’s heart.When Nehemiah hears the report about Jerusalem, he doesn’t shrug. He sits down and weeps. He mourns, fasts, and prays (Nehemiah 1:4). Leaders don’t become leaders because they want a platform. They become leaders because they can’t ignore what God has put in front of them.In ministry, it’s easy to get insulated. You can spend your week putting out fires, managing budgets, and planning Sundays, and slowly lose touch with what people are actually carrying.But God often begins his leadership assignments with a burden.Pastor, what situation makes you stop and say, “This isn’t how it’s supposed to be”? That may be the beginning of God’s call.God uses leaders who care about what God cares about.2) Build a reputation for dependability.Nehemiah is trusted by the king. That’s why he’s in the role he’s in. A cupbearer had to be loyal, discreet, and reliable. The king trusts him with his safety and with his confidence.And God often prepares leaders through ordinary faithfulness long before the “big assignment” shows up. God doesn’t hand responsibility to good intentions; he entrusts it to proven faithfulness.Jesus said, “Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much” (Luke 16:10 NIV).Before God hands you a larger burden, he watches what you do with the burden you already have.Dependability isn’t flashy, but it’s foundational:Do you keep your word?Do you show up when it’s hard?Do you finish what you start?Do people experience you as steady?You don’t need a bigger title to become more trustworthy. You need deeper integrity.3) Make yourself available when God calls.Nehemiah’s assignment was not convenient. Jerusalem was between 800 and 1,000 miles away. The job was dangerous. The politics were complicated. Opposition was real. Yet when the moment came, Nehemiah was willing to go.Here’s a leadership truth we don’t love, but it’s still true: God can do more with willingness than with raw talent.God is not mainly looking for ability. He’s looking for credibility, dependability, and availability.Availability is a choice.It’s the simple, costly prayer: “Here am I. Send me.”And it raises honest questions:Am I available to do something outside my comfort zone?Am I available to serve in a way that won’t earn applause?Am I available even if it disrupts my plans?Pastor, you don’t have to see every step to say yes to God.Nehemiah didn’t start with a construction plan. He started with a burden, a prayer life, and a willing heart.The kind of leader God uses is not the most talented person in the room. It’s the person who is sensitive to real need, dependable in character, and available when God says go.
When Pressure Is High, Let God Speak First
“It was the first year of the reign of Darius the Mede, the son of Ahasuerus, who became king of the Babylonians. During the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, learned from reading the word of the LORD, as revealed to Jeremiah the prophet, that Jerusalem must lie desolate for seventy years.” Daniel 9:1-2 (NLT)Prayer is one of God’s best gifts in a crisis, not because it helps you manage stress, but because it puts you back in front of the only one who can actually carry what’s too heavy for you.Daniel modeled that.When Daniel realized the clock was running out on Israel’s exile, he didn’t just feel hopeful. He also felt the gap: The people weren’t spiritually ready for what God was about to do. That burden drove him to prayer.But notice where Daniel started. He let God speak to him before he spoke to God.Daniel “learned from reading the word of the LORD, as revealed to Jeremiah the prophet” (Daniel 9:2 NLT). Before he prayed, Daniel listened. Scripture steadied him, reminded him what God had already said, and gave him the right frame for what came next.That’s a word pastors need, especially on a Monday.When pressure is high, it’s easy to treat prayer like a quick download: “God, here’s what’s on fire. Please handle it.” But Daniel’s approach is slower and better. God speaks first. God moves first. God leads first. Then we respond.So how do you listen to God when problems and stress seem to be all around?You open the Bible—not to hunt for a verse to share, but to meet with the Lord.Here’s one simple way to do it today:Read a short passage (even a few verses).Sit with it long enough for the noise in your head to settle.Ask, “Lord, what are you saying to me?”Then pray one honest response based on what you just read.Daniel didn’t come to God ready to give a speech. He came ready for a conversation. And he let God set the tone.The more Scripture shapes you, the more your prayers will stop sounding like panic—and start sounding like trust.
The Kind of Leadership That Lasts
You can build a crowd on personality, and you can build momentum on skill. But you can’t build a ministry that lasts on charisma alone.That’s because the foundation of leadership is character, not charisma.Charisma is real. In fact, it’s a gift. Some leaders can walk into a room and settle everybody down. Some can tell a story and you can feel the temperature change.But charisma won’t hold you up when the stress hits—when criticism comes, when you’re tired, and when you’re tempted. In those moments, who you are matters more than what you can do.I’ve watched leaders with real charisma lose their influence because their private life couldn’t support their public life. That’s why charisma can’t be the foundation. If people can’t trust you, they won’t follow you for long.Credibility—the real testA lot of organizations confuse position with leadership. They think a title creates influence. It doesn’t.And the same mistake happens in ministry. A platform can make you visible, but it can’t make you believable. Here’s the difference: Reputation is what people say you are, and character is what you really are.Character is what you are in the dark, when nobody’s looking, when you could cut the corner and no one would ever know.What Scripture says to look for in leadersThe Bible says, “Remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith” (Hebrews 13:7 NIV).Notice what it doesn’t say. It doesn’t say, “Consider their talent.” And it doesn’t say, “Consider their style.”It says, “Consider the outcome of their way of life.” God builds lasting leadership on a life you can trust.That Hebrews passage gives you three simple things to watch for:A message worth rememberingWhen you speak, are you giving people truth they can build on or just something that sounds good in the moment?A lifestyle worth consideringDo the people closest to you see the same person the crowd sees?A faith worth imitatingAre you depending on God, or are you living off adrenaline and ability?When you have those three things—a message worth remembering, a lifestyle worth considering, and a faith worth imitating—that’s character. And character outlasts charisma every time.How leaders are madePastor, don’t ask, “Do people like me?” Ask, “Is my life worth following up close?”That’s not a question meant to shame you. It’s a question to give direction, because you can’t lead people somewhere you refuse to go yourself.If you feel a gap between your public leadership and your private life, don’t panic. Just get honest.Character isn’t built in a weekend. It’s built one decision at a time—when you tell the truth and it costs you, when you do the right thing and nobody sees it, and when you keep your conscience clean before God.That’s where leaders are made. And that’s the real measure of leadership.
Lead with Mercy When People Are Hurting
Jesus’ ministry was all about mercy. He showed mercy everywhere he went.If you want to know what mercy-shaped leadership looks like, watch how Jesus meets people in three moments pastors face all the time: shame, disappointment, and death. Luke 1:78 says, “A new day will dawn on us from above because our God is loving and merciful” (GW). Because Jesus is merciful, you can’t just talk about mercy. Mercy has to shape the way you shepherd.Watch how Jesus treats the ashamed, how he answers disappointment, and how he speaks hope when death is close. Then go do the same in your ministry.1) When people mess up, protect their dignity and refuse to throw stones.In John 8, a woman is dragged into public shame. The religious leaders are not trying to restore her. They are trying to use her to trap Jesus.I love what Jesus does first. He slows the whole moment down, protects her dignity, and refuses to let her become a spectacle.When they keep on questioning him, he straightens up and says to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her” (John 8:7 NIV). One by one, the accusers walk away. After they all are gone, he assures her he doesn’t condemn her and then says, “Go now and leave your life of sin” (John 8:11 NIV).Pastor, that is where mercy begins. Jesus refuses to shame her, but he does call her to change.That is the kind of mercy people trust.It tells the truth without public humiliation.It makes room for repentance.It offers a next step instead of a permanent label.And if you are honest, you need that mercy too. When you have stumbled, overreacted, or said something you wish you could take back, Jesus is not looking for a chance to shame you. He is ready to restore you.Jesus says, “I have come to save the world and not to judge it” (John 12:47 NLT). If you lead like a judge, people will hide. If you lead like a shepherd who has received mercy, people can finally be honest.2) When disappointment settles in, don’t let it harden you.A lot of anger is really disappointment that has been sitting too long. Pastors know that feeling.In John 5, a man has been lying by a pool for 38 years. That is a long time to live with disappointment. So when Jesus asks, “Do you want to get well?” (John 5:6 NIV), the man does not really answer the question. He explains why nothing has changed: Somebody else always gets there first.Let disappointment sit long enough, and blame starts to feel normal. You stop expecting much. The heart gets hard.Jesus does not shame the man for that. He answers him with mercy: “Get up! Pick up your mat and walk” (John 5:8 NIV). Mercy gives him something to do, and the man walks.Pastor, sometimes the impossible is not a dramatic turnaround by Sunday. Sometimes it is the quieter miracle of staying soft when you have been let down, obeying God in the next small step, and refusing to let disappointment train you into cynicism.God’s mercy makes room for hope again.3) When death is close, offer people more than comfort; offer them mercy.Sooner or later, every pastor walks into a room where eternity is no longer theoretical: a hospital room, a graveside, or a conversation where death is suddenly close enough to touch.In Luke 23, two criminals hang beside Jesus. One mocks him. The other admits the truth: “We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong” (Luke 23:41 NIV). Then he says, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom” (Luke 23:42 NIV).And Jesus answers, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43 NIV).That is more than comfort. It is mercy.It reminds you that the people in front of you do not mainly need better religious performance. They need a Savior, and so do you.So, pastor, carry mercy into the rooms waiting for you this week.Carry it into the hard conversation with the person who failed, into the long disappointment that is tempting you toward cynicism, and into the hospital room, the funeral, and the private places where fear gets loud.Mercy cannot simply be something you preach about. It has to shape the way you care for those you lead.Isaiah 30:18 says, “The LORD wants to show his mercy to you. He wants to rise and comfort you” (NCV). That is God’s word to your people.It is also God’s word to you.
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